When "TMNT II: The Secret of the Ooze" hit theaters in 1991, critics were quick to label it as too violent for children and too frustrating for parents. But were they wrong?
In a new series from Meet Your Double Feature, Thomas and Frank look back on contemporary reviews to find out what the discourse was around a popular film in the week of its release.
It's a deep dive into everything Ninja Turtles, and it starts right now!
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Meet Your Double Feature is a double-blind movie review podcast hosted by brothers Thomas and Frank. Thomas is an event producer and broadcaster from Chicago. Frank is an independent filmmaker living in Los Angeles.
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For full episodes, written reviews and more, visit our website at https://www.MeetYourDoubleFeature.com/
"Nate and Moriah in Venice" (which Frank Co-Produced) is now available to stream for free on Tubi!
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Sources + Further Reading
- Donna Britt and Hamani Britt-Gibson - Washington Post
- Roger Ebert - Chicago Sun-Times (TMNT II)
- Roger Ebert - Chicago Sun Times (TMNT 1990)
- Dave Kehr - Chicago Sun-Times
- Janet Maslin - The New York Times
- Michael Sauter - Entertainment Weekly
- Gene Siskel - Chicago Tribune
- Felix Vasquez - Cinema Crazed
Music for tonight's show licensed through Soundstripe
"The Shakedown" by Dresden, The Flamingo
"Soul Tonic" by Cast of Characters
"Sophistikitty" by Cast of Characters
(00:00) Intro
(00:33) Why Secret of the Ooze?
(05:02) Box Office and TMNT History
(09:00) Were the Turtles Too Violent?
(19:35) The Plot to End Turtle-Mania
(32:01) Vanilla Ice the Omnipotent Rapper
(33:46) Are the TMNT Movies Good?
(39:46) The Two Faces of April O'Neil
(48:05) Modern Perspective on Secret of the Ooze
(51:23) Wrap-Up
00:00:00
Ever wondered what critics had to say about your favorite films
00:00:03
when they first hit theaters? That's what we're taking a look
00:00:05
at today with a new series from Meet Your Double Feature that
00:00:07
we're calling What Did Critics Think?
00:00:10
For our first episode in the series, we're going to take a
00:00:11
look back at an old childhood favorite to see what critics had
00:00:14
to say about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, The Secret of
00:00:18
the Use when it first hit theaters back in March of 1991.
00:00:32
Hello and welcome to Meet Your Double feature.
00:00:34
My name is Thomas, joined as always by my brother Frank.
00:00:37
Frank, how's it going? I'm.
00:00:39
Excited to talk about some turtles man.
00:00:41
Some turtles. 4. Turtles in particular. 4 turtles
00:00:46
no more. We're not talking about the girl
00:00:48
one. I will.
00:00:50
If you want me to he. Loves he's not in the movie, but
00:00:53
I mean, that is its own can of worms.
00:00:55
Anyway, yes, we're kicking things off here.
00:00:57
We're in our offseason from our regular meet you double feature
00:00:59
content and once again, just trying out a new format just to
00:01:02
see, you know, stretch our legs a bit.
00:01:04
Talk about movies you and I have seen prior to recording episodes
00:01:07
about them. I would say Secret of the Use,
00:01:11
maybe a movie I've seen more than any other movie in my life.
00:01:16
Yeah, yeah. I think possibly the same.
00:01:18
For me, like a lot of people, and maybe it's different now,
00:01:22
but like especially in the age where you had like a home video
00:01:24
collection, a lot of kids would just have one movie that they
00:01:27
watched over and over again from like a certain age range.
00:01:30
And for us growing up in the 90s, I would say Secret of the
00:01:33
Use was your main one. And then I also ended up
00:01:36
watching it a lot. And then I also watched a ton of
00:01:38
the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers movie.
00:01:40
So like those two were just on constantly.
00:01:43
And even as an adult, I'll put Secret to the Use on every now
00:01:45
and again because I like it. It's a fun movie.
00:01:48
Yeah, we watched those on VHS, and if you don't know what Avhs
00:01:53
is, get out of here. Get out of here.
00:02:00
Not welcome. No, of course.
00:02:04
Yeah. So that was like our routine
00:02:06
watch as kids. And we we just know those movies
00:02:08
by heart. We can quote them front to back.
00:02:10
And what I thought was interesting was that for the
00:02:13
second year in a row, they've shown one of the live action
00:02:15
Turtles movies from the 90s at movie theaters as part of one of
00:02:18
those like Fathom Events screenings.
00:02:21
Because I think this year, 2026, was the 35th anniversary of
00:02:24
Secret of the Use. So I went to see that back in
00:02:27
March. Were you did you go as well or
00:02:29
did you miss that one? No, I didn't.
00:02:31
I didn't. I didn't see either of them in
00:02:32
theaters, but that was really cool because I don't think they
00:02:34
originally were going to release secret reviews as well.
00:02:37
I think it was the first one did so well financially that they're
00:02:41
like, OK, I guess we'll do secret reviews too.
00:02:44
Yeah, we're in an era of profitable theatrical re
00:02:47
releases, which I don't mind at all.
00:02:49
I think it's super fun. I also got to see the Star Wars
00:02:50
prequels in theaters again. I like it as a trend.
00:02:53
But what I thought was interesting coming back from
00:02:56
watching Secret of the Use, was I took a look at critic reviews
00:02:59
because obviously it's a family movie from the 90s.
00:03:03
It's like an action comedy. I know that it was not highly
00:03:06
regarded, even scored lower than the previous live action Ninja
00:03:10
Turtles film from 1990. But I wanted to look at like
00:03:13
what actual film critics were saying about it week of, you
00:03:16
know, like what was like the capital D discourse about Secret
00:03:20
of the Use just in America when it was released.
00:03:24
Because I imagine it, it must have been so different than how
00:03:27
people would look at it now when it's like a film with a long
00:03:30
legacy and impressions have kind of morphed over time.
00:03:34
Like at this certain point, this was just a movie you could go
00:03:36
see at the theater. And I thought it'd be funny to
00:03:38
look at like, what were people saying about it?
00:03:41
And honestly, the findings are shocking to me.
00:03:44
Very. Bizarre takes the findings, it's
00:03:48
like we've done the research, it's the results will shock you.
00:03:53
They will shock you. I have done more research for
00:03:55
this than usual because rather than just watching the movie, I
00:03:58
went and I sourced. I think I read through probably
00:04:02
like a dozen or so reviews from like larger, mostly newspaper
00:04:05
offerings in 1991. And I looked at a couple that
00:04:08
are like newer reviews from like websites and fan sites in the 20
00:04:12
tens. And then of course, you and I
00:04:15
have our own opinions, which we'll get into.
00:04:17
But overall, there was just like a broad narrative around this
00:04:21
sequel, specifically Secret of the Use, where people were
00:04:25
talking about a movie that was not what was released, if that
00:04:28
makes sense. Like, they had all these
00:04:30
expectations going in that they just ignored what was actually
00:04:34
happening and criticized it over things that I think were
00:04:36
entirely unfair. So I want to revisit that today
00:04:39
and sort of interweave it with our own perspectives on the
00:04:41
movie, you know, 30 years on. Wow, that that's a long time.
00:04:47
That's a long time ago that that movie came out.
00:04:50
Yeah, I know, right? It doesn't feel like everything
00:04:52
in the 90s feels like it's perpetually 10 years ago to me.
00:04:56
Yeah, it is. It is.
00:04:58
Don't. It is until otherwise, Yeah,
00:05:00
these other years don't count. So the biggest thing that set me
00:05:03
off, I'll just I'll get into this, I guess.
00:05:06
Do you want no box office? You want no box office numbers
00:05:09
first. Tell me the.
00:05:10
Box office. Let's look at that box of
00:05:13
offices or whatever that is, whatever that means.
00:05:16
So part of the deal was that the original TMNT movie from 1990,
00:05:21
the first live action feature film that the Turtles appeared
00:05:24
in, did way better than I think people were expecting.
00:05:27
It was a massive release. I have written down here that it
00:05:30
was like the ninth highest grossing film of 1990.
00:05:34
And because it was distributed by New Line Cinema, it's
00:05:37
technically hailed as at the time the highest grossing
00:05:40
independent film release up until that year.
00:05:44
I think it's been beaten since then, but at the time it was
00:05:46
like a record setting independent film release because
00:05:48
it was not distributed by a huge studio.
00:05:50
So Massive hit more than people I think were even expecting.
00:05:54
Although it does make sense because Turtle Mania was like a
00:05:56
whole thing at the time. Oh, I was there.
00:05:59
I was there for Turtle Mania. I was a part.
00:06:01
Of I was there 3000 years ago, what were you saying?
00:06:07
You said you started it. Yeah.
00:06:10
That's the first one I told everybody.
00:06:12
Here's the word of mouth. You're like pretty good this
00:06:16
one. Cool, but rude actually.
00:06:18
Interesting. Interesting.
00:06:21
So yeah, I think the first film did like $200 million worldwide
00:06:26
and that's a 1990 money. So quite successful 19. 90
00:06:31
money. It was funny looking.
00:06:31
It was orange. It's funny, it was weird, had
00:06:34
Homer Simpson on it and then the sequel came out like a year
00:06:39
later. I always thought this movie was
00:06:40
from 1992, but it was a 91. Came out almost exactly a year
00:06:43
later and still did quite well, although not as big as the first
00:06:46
one. I think I wrote it down
00:06:49
78 for the second film, so still a big success.
00:06:52
Not as much as the first one, but in addition to box office,
00:06:56
people had had time to ruminate on this first movie being such a
00:06:59
big hit. And I honestly think it like
00:07:01
poisoned the will of like critical discourse around Secret
00:07:03
of the Use 'cause people just came out swinging, they were
00:07:06
ready to not like the movie. Yeah.
00:07:08
I wonder if this is like, I think there was a documentary
00:07:11
about this recently. But also in the 90s, there was
00:07:14
this weird thing where, like, everyone wanted to like, hate
00:07:17
Barney. Do you remember this?
00:07:20
Yes, you were even part of that, I remember you saying.
00:07:22
Well, hang on, I didn't. Start that one.
00:07:24
I was like, turtles good, Barney bad.
00:07:27
We're at 11. Yeah, now I know exactly what
00:07:31
you mean. It was like people really
00:07:33
souring on I just cause was it just that they saw Barney all
00:07:37
over the place and so they just got tired of him?
00:07:39
I don't know. I don't.
00:07:40
Yeah. Maybe it was a it was a backlash
00:07:42
to the success or popularity of something that maybe they didn't
00:07:46
understand because it was aimed at younger audiences.
00:07:50
I couldn't tell you. I maybe got to watch the
00:07:52
documentary. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:54
It's definitely worth investigating because I think
00:07:55
it's a similar phenomenon. I mean, the Ninja Turtles, just
00:07:58
broadly speaking, I know that they were a huge hit by the 90s
00:08:01
because they started as a comic book, which had like kind of a
00:08:04
cult following. And then there was the really
00:08:07
popular like NES game and the hugely popular 80s to 90s
00:08:12
cartoon. That was probably what like
00:08:14
really ballooned their popularity and got them
00:08:16
Greenland for a live action film.
00:08:18
So turtles are everywhere. Turtle mania was like a concept.
00:08:20
It was like a real commercial thing.
00:08:22
Yeah, I think I remember the animated series too after the
00:08:26
first movie came out. Like in the intro to the show
00:08:30
which has that like iconic catchy theme song they like
00:08:34
started splicing in clips of the live action Ninja Turtles into
00:08:39
the animated shows intro which I always thought was super neat.
00:08:43
It is neat. It was very much like a shared
00:08:45
moment in time because I think the way I often hear it's
00:08:47
surmised is that the Turtles like pushed so hard into
00:08:51
merchandising and spin offs that they like kind of overstayed
00:08:55
their welcome. And then that's why there was a
00:08:56
bit of a drop off. But it was still at its peak in
00:08:59
91. And I honestly think that like
00:09:01
the two things that stand out from reading like a dozen or
00:09:04
more professional film critics reviews of the movie in the
00:09:07
weekend where it came out, there's 2 problems that they had
00:09:10
going in. First, there was some sort of
00:09:13
hubbub going in that the Turtles promoted violence to children.
00:09:17
That was the big one. And the second one that I'll get
00:09:19
into later is that I think people were concerned that
00:09:22
turtle mania wouldn't end and they were trying to, like,
00:09:25
torpedo it so they didn't have to go see another one.
00:09:30
It's just going to be like this forever, just turtles all the
00:09:34
time. They were like, Oh my God, the
00:09:36
Turtle cinematic universe is going to go on for 20 years
00:09:40
because that's how they talk about it.
00:09:42
But I want to start on the violence one because to me as
00:09:45
someone who watched both movies a lot as a kid, it's an insane
00:09:48
take that the first Turtles movie was fine and the second
00:09:51
one is too violent. Like Frank.
00:09:54
You can explain this to the people if they haven't seen it.
00:09:56
What is the main difference between the tones of the 1st and
00:10:00
2nd Turtles movie? Well, I mean, just in regards to
00:10:03
the violence. I remember they because this was
00:10:08
the thing in the animated series too.
00:10:10
It was really strange. They like Michelangelo, his
00:10:13
signature weapon is the nunchucks, but they took those
00:10:17
away from him in the cartoon and gave him like a grappling hook.
00:10:19
I think because they were like nunchucks, too dangerous, even
00:10:23
though one of the other characters literally has swords.
00:10:26
So I don't know how that makes any sense.
00:10:29
But then it was the same case for the second film where there
00:10:33
there was like a specific note to turn down the violence.
00:10:37
And so I think they almost never use their actual weapons on
00:10:42
people in the second movie. They still do a lot of like
00:10:46
martial arts maneuvers, but it's a little more wacky.
00:10:49
Like the whole opening sequence. They're using like other props
00:10:52
and stuff to kind of like fend off the bad guys.
00:10:56
But I I don't think they, I don't know if it's not at all or
00:11:00
just a lot less, But that was like a note from the first movie
00:11:04
heading into the second one was yes, violence bad Barney, bad
00:11:09
violence bad Barney, bad turtles.
00:11:11
Good. Yes.
00:11:13
To me that's always been the biggest difference.
00:11:14
The original 1990 Turtles film I think shocked certain audiences
00:11:19
who'd only ever seen the cartoon because it carried in some of
00:11:22
the more like noir comic book influence from the original
00:11:26
like. Oh, the source material is dark.
00:11:28
It's a dark, dark comic series, Yeah.
00:11:30
Yeah, it's like Batman. Like the whole thing is it's
00:11:32
like a joke. It's like Batman, but they're
00:11:34
like giant mutant walking, talking turtles, you know, And
00:11:38
the first movie, like carried in some of that, like self
00:11:40
seriousness and actually is like kind of genuinely dramatic,
00:11:45
which is what a lot of people like about that one.
00:11:47
Whereas the second movie much more heavily embraces like the
00:11:50
cartoon's comedic tone. The turtles are like sillier.
00:11:54
They're having more fun. And to your point, like Leo
00:11:56
still has his two Cortana blades, but he never hits
00:11:58
anybody with them. He'll just like throw them into
00:12:00
the ceiling and then kick him in the head.
00:12:02
Yeah, yeah. So that's what you and I think
00:12:06
and I think is what anybody looking back on the series would
00:12:08
say now. But going into the release of
00:12:10
Secret of the Use, even professional famous film critic
00:12:14
Roger Ebert, for example, just does not care.
00:12:17
He doesn't care what's in the movie.
00:12:18
He's he's already decided that they're too violent.
00:12:21
Like if you go back and you read the reviews on his website for
00:12:24
the first Turtles film in 1990, he mentions that there is
00:12:28
concerns about violence, but he says quote and the violence is
00:12:32
fairly routine as these things go, stylized and not very
00:12:35
graphic. That's his description of the
00:12:37
first movie. His entire review of Secret of
00:12:40
the Use is about how horribly upsetting and violent it is.
00:12:44
The second movie. The second one, he's he.
00:12:47
He goes off on Secret of the use.
00:12:49
He gave it one star and he genuinely says that the turtles
00:12:53
are like contributing to like the moral rot of America's
00:12:56
youth. He thinks they're like sinister
00:12:59
creatures. These big green.
00:13:03
I can't believe Barney did this. He made this.
00:13:05
Movie Barney would take this, but like right away I'm like
00:13:10
Ebert is one of the most like well known film critics.
00:13:13
He wrote for the Chicago Sun Times, local celebrity in
00:13:17
Chicago. People respect his opinion not
00:13:19
'cause they always agreed with him, but because they respected
00:13:21
like his. You could kind of gauge things
00:13:23
based on your knowledge of how he viewed films.
00:13:26
And I just thought right off the bat, like his review secretly
00:13:28
used is just like petulant. He's so angry that it exists and
00:13:32
has been convinced by what was probably a year or more of
00:13:35
public conversation that these films were promoting violence,
00:13:38
even though he watched the first one and thought it was fine.
00:13:41
Well, I mean, as we brought up before, he watches Inferman
00:13:46
weekly. He just can't stop thinking
00:13:49
about Inferman. And that is just that did come
00:13:53
out when we talked about. Inferman that's true.
00:13:55
It's just shaped his whole perception of of violence.
00:14:00
It's just he just doesn't understand anymore.
00:14:02
I I can't believe this though. I, I don't know, like, did he
00:14:07
forget he saw the first movie? Did he forget he's seen any
00:14:10
other movies? Why did he think that the second
00:14:13
film was so violent? Because it's not.
00:14:15
It's bizarre. It's so much less so.
00:14:17
It's overtly comedic and takes away any sort of like, dangerous
00:14:20
aspects like in the first film. Like there's threats of physical
00:14:25
violence, April O'neil's apartment burns down, like
00:14:28
Raphael almost dies and they have to like nurse him back to
00:14:31
health. Nothing remotely that serious
00:14:33
happens in the second film, but he just was adamant that the
00:14:36
turtles, like as characters were bad for America.
00:14:41
Like let me see if I can find another good quote here.
00:14:44
First off, Ebert thinks that the turtles come from the NES game
00:14:48
because he says here quote. All that differentiates them in
00:14:53
the Nintendo game that gave them their berth is their weapons.
00:14:56
It's as if the whole sum of a character's personality is
00:14:59
expressed by the way he does violence.
00:15:01
The turtles are an example of the hazard of individuality.
00:15:06
What does that even mean? Hazard of whoa, hang on now he's
00:15:10
getting like into some, I don't even know, philosophical
00:15:15
manifesto type stuff here. Yes, he's pissed.
00:15:19
He was so mad at this movie to the point where it just clouded
00:15:23
any real conversation about what's actually happening in it.
00:15:26
It's like he could have written that review before he watched
00:15:28
it, you know? Yeah, I do like that, he says.
00:15:30
The Nintendo game that they came from, like they came to life
00:15:34
from this Nintendo game and made their own movie like.
00:15:38
And like, we have to put a stop to him.
00:15:40
A small boy told me that Barney's responsible for this.
00:15:43
Yeah, I can't keep getting away. Maybe he played the Nintendo
00:15:46
game because it's notoriously difficult and he was like.
00:15:49
He did. He did actually, if you go back
00:15:51
to read his first review. I don't have a quote about it,
00:15:53
but he mentions that he tried playing the NES game and
00:15:56
couldn't get past level 2 and I'm like now I know.
00:15:58
No, see, OK, I see the order of events now.
00:16:01
He saw the first movie. He was like, that was all right,
00:16:02
I'm going to go play the the source material.
00:16:04
Obviously this Nintendo game. And then it was too hard.
00:16:08
And he's like, if you ever make a sequel to this movie, I'm
00:16:11
going to use I'm going to throw throw my weight around as Roger
00:16:14
Ebert. Roger E is going to come in and
00:16:17
he's going to sink this. Movie.
00:16:18
He's going to nunchuck this movie.
00:16:20
Give it one star. And then surrender my nunchucks
00:16:23
to the police because I'm not a bad person.
00:16:26
This seems like it was at the peak of like when the media was
00:16:31
obsessed with talking about like, video games are bad,
00:16:34
they're too violent. That's what's causing all the
00:16:36
violence, not all the actual real problems in the country,
00:16:38
but video games are the. Problem pretty much.
00:16:42
I just was so stunned by that review alone because Ebert's
00:16:45
someone who, again, I don't agree with his perspective on
00:16:47
everything and he's reviewed like 10 movies, so of course
00:16:50
he's going to have a bad take every now and again.
00:16:52
But right away I'm like, that's one of the reviews that gets
00:16:55
totalled into the films like Rotten Tomatoes score, you know
00:16:57
what I mean? And all of a sudden you're like,
00:16:59
well, what was everyone else say?
00:17:00
Like, did anybody engage with this film in a more like sincere
00:17:04
way? How long has Rotten Tomatoes
00:17:07
been around? That's a great question.
00:17:09
I don't know how long it's been around, but it does
00:17:11
retroactively pull critical reviews from when the movies
00:17:13
were made. Oh interesting.
00:17:15
OK because that's how I found this actually.
00:17:16
I think I went through either Metacritic or RT and just would
00:17:18
like link back to published reviews.
00:17:21
I actually had to go through a whole rigmarole to find the Gene
00:17:25
Siskel review in the Chicago Tribune because it wasn't like
00:17:28
widely accessible. I think I had to like sign up
00:17:30
for the Tribune and now they won't stop emailing me just
00:17:33
because I wanted to find an article from 1991.
00:17:36
What? Oh Siskel of Siskel and Ebert
00:17:40
his his partner. In in his own poem in Cry Yeah,
00:17:45
Ebert with your nunchucks. And So what did Siskel?
00:17:48
Say, I was going to say, I think I had that further down.
00:17:51
Let's see what Gene Siskel said. So in the Sun Times, March 22nd,
00:17:54
1991, the weekend the movie came out, Siskel also gave Turtles to
00:17:58
one star. And his review was like, not as
00:18:02
scathing. He just seemingly found the
00:18:04
movie boring. Although he did reiterate the
00:18:06
point that, like parents were concerned about violence and he
00:18:10
can understand why. So he didn't rebuke that either.
00:18:13
He was like, no, the movie is super violent.
00:18:15
And the more I read, the more I realized that in my eyes, the
00:18:19
reason secret of the use is less violent is because they don't
00:18:22
stab people or use like blades and the ramifications of the
00:18:27
violence are less severe. But I think what these people
00:18:29
are seeing in 91 was the martial arts itself as like less of a
00:18:34
choreography and more of just like really violent action.
00:18:39
Because, you know, this was before, like, the Jackie Chan
00:18:42
films had like really made their way over and martial arts was
00:18:45
still kind of just like a niche genre of film making that was
00:18:49
mostly international. So I honestly think people like
00:18:51
Siskel just saw them doing like karate kicks and were like, Oh
00:18:53
my God. This is so horrendous.
00:18:54
Yeah, it's like he kicked that man in the head.
00:18:57
He can't do that. He can't do that.
00:18:59
That foot ninja is dead. He could have been
00:19:04
rehabilitated, but now he's been kicked to death by a giant.
00:19:07
Turtle, we're supposed to send that man to jail and go through
00:19:10
the courts, not kick him in the head.
00:19:14
I mean, probably, probably a fairpoint.
00:19:18
They're just like, what's all this Kung Fu business and why is
00:19:22
that rat teaching him this? I gotta get these rats out of
00:19:25
the. Streets teaching our kids Kung
00:19:27
Fu. Yeah, you see your child
00:19:30
learning from a rat, and he's like, oh, no.
00:19:35
I will say Siskel also highlights the other aspect of
00:19:38
this where he First off, he calls the movie depressing.
00:19:42
He he yes, because the violence he thinks that the turtles
00:19:46
resorting to what you and I would see as a dance like action
00:19:51
sequence of like karate and acrobatics is them just like
00:19:54
beating the hell out of somebody.
00:19:57
He doesn't like the comedy he likes.
00:19:59
He said it's occasionally the comedy lands, but mostly
00:20:01
doesn't. And then he mentions that even
00:20:04
though he hated this movie, he laments that it will probably
00:20:08
become a long running film franchise.
00:20:10
So that's the other angle. He's like, I got to end things
00:20:13
here or else we're going to be seeing Ninja Turtles for the
00:20:15
rest of my life. Correct the timeline, although
00:20:18
you know what they're totally right because turtles much like
00:20:24
like Pokémon, you know, there was a pokey mania turtle mania.
00:20:28
They had their peak and then for sure dips from that, but never
00:20:33
really went away. And now of both had somewhat
00:20:36
major resurgences. And that's always been kind of
00:20:41
interesting to me because I have friends around my age who have
00:20:44
like kids now and like their kids are like super into like
00:20:49
Pokémon and Ninja Turtles. And I'm like, that's the same
00:20:51
thing I grew up on. Like the stuff just never went
00:20:53
away. Like.
00:20:55
But, you know, I mean, it's, it's like, obviously the parents
00:20:58
are the ones showing these kids this.
00:20:59
And, you know, they're, this is what I was into and, you know,
00:21:02
we're going to watch this. But those properties have
00:21:06
persisted. There's been so many iterations
00:21:09
of the Ninja Turtles. I'm almost positive there's a
00:21:12
Ninja Turtles TV show airing right now.
00:21:14
Oh, they just greenlit a baby turtle show.
00:21:16
Did you see that? I definitely did not.
00:21:19
What does that? Mean they did like baby puppet
00:21:21
babies but it's literally called like teenage baby Ninja Turtles
00:21:25
or something. Teenage baby mutant Ninja
00:21:27
Turtles. They just keep mixing the words
00:21:29
up. Are they actually?
00:21:30
It would be awesome if they were actual Muppets.
00:21:33
Oh no, no, no. It's, it's a lazy cartoon like
00:21:35
CG thing. But if they were Muppets, yeah,
00:21:37
that'd be awesome. That would be great because the
00:21:40
characters in these live action films, they're stuntmen in
00:21:44
suits, but then they also have like animatronic heads that were
00:21:47
made by the Jim Henson Company. Yeah, that's really awesome.
00:21:52
Yeah. Because they made the 2010
00:21:54
Turtles movies where they all looked like giant Optimus
00:21:56
Primes. Those turtles were scary, that
00:22:00
was. Scary ugly.
00:22:02
Hideous. That was the strangest iteration
00:22:04
of those characters I've ever seen like and then there was two
00:22:08
of those movies and I frankly, that was off putting to me.
00:22:12
They need to be kind of cute still while they're beating
00:22:15
people's heads in and and sending.
00:22:16
Well, at their hospital, sending those poor poor foot ninjas to
00:22:19
the hospital. It is kind of funny because the
00:22:22
turtles are teenagers, but also those foot ninjas are teenagers
00:22:26
as well. That's like a whole plot beat,
00:22:27
especially in the first film, is that the Foot Clan is being
00:22:30
essentially supported by all these disaffected teens who are
00:22:34
being turned to a life of crime and then folded in to become
00:22:36
ninjas. Yeah.
00:22:38
Why are these critics not mad about that?
00:22:39
They're they're more mad that the kids are going to turn into
00:22:42
turtles. Like that's.
00:22:42
Yeah, they're going. To turn into Barneys and
00:22:44
Turtles, that's what I mean. If you watched either of these
00:22:47
films, I would say even going back to the first one, which
00:22:49
Ebert didn't care about at all. He he literally said like this
00:22:52
is about as good as a Turtles movie as you could make.
00:22:54
He was totally fine with it. And in that one, the entire
00:22:57
point of the film is to contrast Splinter, who's like a good
00:23:01
father figure to these young boys, with Shredder, who is a
00:23:05
nefarious father figure that uses that like, desire for
00:23:08
approval from these young kids to make them literally go do
00:23:11
crime. And it's like about parenting
00:23:14
and like, how to kind of deal with the inherent boundless
00:23:17
energy of, like, teenage boys and like, trying to steer them
00:23:19
in the right direction. But then everybody saw it was
00:23:21
just like, leave the foot alone. Stop picking them.
00:23:25
Yeah, Siskel saw that, and he's like, clearly the rat is just
00:23:28
better at teaching violence to the turtles than than the other
00:23:31
guy, so there. Was a thing in the Ebert review
00:23:34
that was like kids who like these movies.
00:23:36
This isn't a quote, but it's like a paraphrasing Run the risk
00:23:39
of growing up to star in videos of police brutality like people.
00:23:44
He thought that I was going to leave the theatre after watching
00:23:47
it. Or maybe you because you would
00:23:48
have been the right age to go see it.
00:23:49
Go leave the theatre and then just like punch the nearest guy
00:23:53
you see on the street and then just shout cowabunga and then.
00:23:56
I mean, I did do that a few times, but like mind your
00:24:00
business, Siskel, like. Just so aggressive.
00:24:06
It's just so like heightened the vitriol against what was a
00:24:10
fairly banal kids movie. It wasn't everybody, though.
00:24:14
I will say I have other reviews sourced of people who definitely
00:24:17
saw the change that they were making.
00:24:19
Let me pull one up. So there was a review from
00:24:22
Michael Sauter in Entertainment Weekly published looks like a
00:24:26
couple months later, maybe he gave the film AC Plus.
00:24:29
And he I just kind of have like bullet points about his
00:24:32
thoughts. Noted that the film did
00:24:35
intentionally tone down the violence and that the second
00:24:38
movie he phrased it as like, this is one that you can safely
00:24:41
leave to, you know, babysit your kids at home.
00:24:45
Like he was essentially like, can this just come out on VHS so
00:24:48
that I could put it on to distract my child.
00:24:51
But he also knows he. It's OK to just leave.
00:24:53
Leave your kids at home unsupervised.
00:24:56
Just make sure Ninja Turtles 2 is on.
00:24:57
Not the first one, not. The first one, what do you mean
00:24:59
jokes that it's like an electronic babysitter, But
00:25:01
again, it feeds into the other thing where they're like I think
00:25:04
he mentions. Can the next one just come out
00:25:05
straight to video so I don't have to see it?
00:25:08
That's the whole angle. They're like, we know that the
00:25:10
kids will love Ninja Turtles until the day they die.
00:25:13
It'll last 100 lifetimes, but I'm sick of it and there's only
00:25:16
been two of them. Yeah, it's just the 90's, the
00:25:22
90's, the 90's, the 90's. The 90s were a time where there
00:25:30
was like unprecedented levels of marketing towards kids, I think.
00:25:36
True, it was I I think this was new I I think I could be wrong,
00:25:41
but I don't believe there was any time prior or really maybe
00:25:45
as much since where there was so much media aimed at kids so much
00:25:52
of like toys and movies and action figures.
00:25:56
And it was like, there was just a realization that there was a
00:26:00
lot of money to be made there off like what kids were
00:26:03
interested in. And it seems like these are
00:26:07
people that are struggling to deal with that.
00:26:10
I mean, I genuinely, I think that maybe it was part of the
00:26:12
reason people are mad at Barney. People are mad at the turtles or
00:26:15
Pokémon or whatever it may have been because it it was sort of
00:26:18
unprecedented prior to this. Yeah.
00:26:21
As as a kid growing up in the 90s, it was awesome.
00:26:22
I'm like, yeah, give me all this stuff.
00:26:24
All this stuff exactly, but I can see it being a like endless
00:26:28
conveyor belt of kids asking for things from you that you don't
00:26:30
want to spend money on. Like, pointless tie insurance
00:26:34
and toys and Happy Meals and all that stuff.
00:26:37
So yeah, it's like a cultural context for about when the movie
00:26:39
came out that manages to make its way into what are supposed
00:26:43
to be fairly straightforward, just reviews of what that movie
00:26:46
is. Yeah, I also think your point
00:26:48
about the martial arts not being something that these critics
00:26:54
would have been familiar with at the time probably did play a big
00:26:57
part too. Just genuinely not being able to
00:27:01
discriminate between the types of violence and the
00:27:06
characterization of how like martial arts was used to teach
00:27:09
these rebellious teenagers discipline.
00:27:12
Because that's kind of part of the the theming of the movie.
00:27:16
It's actually funny to to kind of bring it back to that idea
00:27:19
again. So Siskel or not Siskel Ebert
00:27:21
wrote for the Chicago Sun Times. There's also a review from a
00:27:24
different critic about the same movie, Dave Care.
00:27:27
Same day, because again, newspapers used to have a lot of
00:27:30
movie content in them. There was like three articles
00:27:32
about this movie in the same issue.
00:27:33
It was like 2 reviews. And then there was one about how
00:27:36
you could go see the stunt performers.
00:27:37
Like if you went to see the film at a local specific theater in
00:27:40
Chicago, like some of the stunt actors were there doing like
00:27:43
martial arts demonstrations. Oh that's awesome.
00:27:46
Wait, can we go? When is this?
00:27:51
Missed it by about 35 years and two months.
00:27:55
Dang, next time. Close, but Dave care from the
00:28:02
sun times actually was very glowing about secret views.
00:28:05
Ironically almost too much. He he like glazes it too hard.
00:28:09
Gave it a three out of four and was the only person that I found
00:28:12
a review from who's who mentioned any sort of
00:28:15
familiarity with like Japanese and Hong Kong martial arts
00:28:19
films. And I think that immediately
00:28:21
helps understand like what we're saying that if you're used to
00:28:23
that as a genre, the turtles movies don't seem hyper violent.
00:28:27
They just seem like they have choreography again, almost like
00:28:29
a dance. Because he mentions even
00:28:32
specifically, I think Golden Harvest produced these films,
00:28:35
which are the same company that produced all those like classic
00:28:38
Jackie Chan movies in Hong Kong. Oh, that's neat.
00:28:41
I didn't know that. Exactly.
00:28:42
There's a connecting thread there.
00:28:43
And at the end of his review, care even like says like, I hope
00:28:47
the success of these films convinces Golden Harvest to
00:28:50
release some of these Jackie Chan movies, for example, like
00:28:53
in the US And that's exactly what would happen.
00:28:55
Wow, so he was a real 1. He saw the potential here.
00:28:59
He's a real one, but again, he might be like 2 ride or die for
00:29:04
this movie because he tries to explain that the like metaphors
00:29:08
in the story in the second one are on par with classic Disney.
00:29:14
In what way does he elaborate on that?
00:29:16
Or is he just like Cinderella equals Michelangelo?
00:29:19
The end. Says that they both tackle
00:29:21
metaphors about like how children deal with adolescence.
00:29:24
I have a quote here where he says that Secret of the Use
00:29:28
shows the turtles quote sitting on a powder keg of nervous,
00:29:31
antsy energy that could be turned toward either anarchy or
00:29:34
idealism, which is accurate. That is what the movies are
00:29:37
about. But he then compares it to like
00:29:39
classic 90. I I wouldn't say this goes
00:29:41
anywhere near like Lion King, you know?
00:29:44
Yeah, yeah. Although that wasn't out yet, so
00:29:46
he wouldn't have been talking about that.
00:29:48
He'd been talking about probably Alex Cinderella.
00:29:50
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I don't think he's that
00:29:53
far off base. He's just talking about the
00:29:56
thematic content of the movie. I suppose.
00:29:59
It's maybe high praise, but. It is high praise, but I just
00:30:02
think that proves our point. Someone who's familiar with
00:30:05
martial arts action as a concept would not be so put off by the
00:30:09
violence quote UN quote in the movie.
00:30:12
So where these movies met? Or I guess the second one
00:30:14
specifically with almost universally negative reviews
00:30:18
outside. As far as I could tell, this one
00:30:20
real one. Yeah, this one real guy mostly
00:30:24
mixed to negative. I think the first film, if you
00:30:26
looked right now I don't have it in front of me, the Rotten
00:30:28
Tomatoes from critics is higher. And I feel like the reaction to
00:30:33
that seems almost like people are surprised that it was almost
00:30:35
like a real movie. You know what I mean?
00:30:36
That like had characters and drama and what actually even
00:30:40
kind of works on an adult, like as a dramatic story just mixed
00:30:43
in with all this silly comedy. And the second one, I think just
00:30:46
people were just tired of it. They didn't like that the
00:30:48
turtles are still around. Where's the, I found it even
00:30:51
funnier quote from Janet Maslin, who was writing for the New York
00:30:55
Times, who was like very harsh towards the movie.
00:30:59
And she said, quote, if the Turtles insist on remaining a
00:31:03
mainstream box office attraction, at least they've now
00:31:06
had the decency to make a mainstream movie.
00:31:09
So again, they don't like that first one, and they make them
00:31:12
very apprehensive about the other one.
00:31:14
They're like, stop making me feel things about these
00:31:16
disgusting turtles. I like that they keep blaming it
00:31:19
on like the turtles themselves too.
00:31:20
Like these video game characters have to come to life and start
00:31:24
filming their lives documentary style in two films.
00:31:27
At least they made a good one this time.
00:31:29
What did she say? She's saying that again that
00:31:32
they toned down the violence and up to the comedy and made it
00:31:35
safer for children like that is a lot of the concern is people
00:31:39
took young kids to see the first one and were shocked that it was
00:31:42
not as carefree as the cartoon. Man, forget them kids.
00:31:50
That's. The thing like kids like it.
00:31:52
Yeah, yeah, they like it. They like it, they like it.
00:31:57
Never mind, they like it. They like it.
00:32:01
Vanilla Ice was the was. What did they have to say about
00:32:03
Vanilla Ice in the second? The one I'm surprised about
00:32:05
South, for anyone who maybe hasn't seen Secret of These in a
00:32:07
while, the way that movie ends is they're fighting these other
00:32:11
mutated monsters, Toca and Razar.
00:32:13
They accidentally spill over into a nightclub that exists on
00:32:17
a dirty dock outside where people are fishing because for
00:32:22
some reason that's where people want to go dancing.
00:32:24
And Vanilla Ice is performing his own music on stage and he
00:32:27
sees the turtles and improvises an entire song and dance with
00:32:31
his backup dancers in four seconds about the turtles.
00:32:35
I don't even think he communicates with them.
00:32:36
I think they just know the choreography is just in their,
00:32:39
it's in their soul. It's it's in their soul.
00:32:42
It's a great shot actually, where he's like nodding along
00:32:44
because the same backing beat is playing and then him and the
00:32:46
dancers leap into the choreography all at once.
00:32:49
And it's like cool and fun. And that's where he sings the Go
00:32:52
ninja go ninja Go, which is very much a lasting part of this
00:32:55
movie. Not one critic talked about how
00:32:58
surreal and insane that is that in the context of the story,
00:33:02
Vanilla Ice is just like an omnipotent rapper who can just
00:33:05
come up with verses about anything and knows a lot about
00:33:08
the Turtles already. They're like, that's how video
00:33:10
games work, OK? These characters, they came to
00:33:13
life from a Super Nintendo game, made their own movie.
00:33:15
They have an omnipotent rapper. We've all been through this
00:33:17
before. It's Disney.
00:33:19
It's Disney. It's Cinderella.
00:33:21
The rat is teaching them about pizza.
00:33:25
Teaching them about pizza, pizza is OK, pizza is OK.
00:33:30
No concerns about the kids diet. They're just like, listen, the
00:33:34
violence, that's one thing. Eating pizza all the time, go
00:33:37
for it. That's that's.
00:33:38
Great, too. That's the best part of the
00:33:40
secret of the use is the opening montage of every single person
00:33:43
in New York City eating pizza outside.
00:33:45
That's what I'm saying. It's like so fun that.
00:33:48
Pizza has looks delicious by the way that they're eating.
00:33:51
I don't know who made that. I want some The production value
00:33:55
of both of these movies is actually quite high.
00:33:58
They're like the cinematography that there's tons of night
00:34:03
cinematography in New York City. It looks great.
00:34:07
There's there's whole sets that they've built, like the
00:34:10
underground train set that the turtles go to live in in that
00:34:15
second movie looks amazing. It's shot really well.
00:34:19
It has this really hazy look. There's a ton of props, a ton of
00:34:25
detail, like to sell that kind of classic, like 90s clutter
00:34:29
that all the kids movies had. Yes, yes, there is really
00:34:34
strong, competent filmmaking happening in both of those
00:34:37
movies. The first one is honestly, as
00:34:40
you mentioned earlier, dramatic in an interesting way.
00:34:43
The second one leads a little bit more into the comedic fun
00:34:46
side, but is also just supremely entertaining.
00:34:51
Yeah, Bodacious. It's bodacious.
00:34:54
It's radical. Yeah, that's my thing with all
00:34:59
of this. It's like I'm not surprised when
00:35:01
I go online and I see that both films, I think the first one's
00:35:04
OK, but the second film has like a 40% or something critic score.
00:35:08
But then I look at what the critics are saying and I'm like,
00:35:09
no, you're all wrong. Most of you have very odd qualms
00:35:13
about this and are not really giving credit to what the movie
00:35:17
does well, because I think both of these are just straight up
00:35:19
good films and unless you really hate the overall bit with the
00:35:25
turtles talking like silly surfer dudes, like there's so
00:35:28
much to like about them. Which they don't even lean too
00:35:31
heavily into that. I would say the the turtles
00:35:35
individually are characterized very well in those films too.
00:35:40
You know their personalities. I would say even better in the
00:35:44
second one because they do a good job of showing the
00:35:47
individual qualities but having them all still act like 4
00:35:50
brothers who get along. Like they all kind of
00:35:51
participate in the silliness in a more like even way.
00:35:56
And just honestly to bring it back around to like American
00:36:00
martial arts films, because that's a genre that's not, you
00:36:05
know, outside of like a lot of maybe John Claude Van Damme
00:36:08
movies or like Canon films, not a lot in that catalog.
00:36:13
A lot of like traditional martial arts films will come
00:36:15
from like China mostly. And like the action choreography
00:36:22
is great in these movies too. It's one of the better ones in
00:36:25
that regard as well. So I think that's that's worth
00:36:28
noting too. The movie, yeah, the action in
00:36:30
the movies holds up great. Some very, very impressive stunt
00:36:33
work. And the second one even elevates
00:36:35
Ernie Reyes, who was a stunt actor in the first film and
00:36:38
makes him Keno, who's like the Turtles new friend in this one.
00:36:41
So they even acknowledge like how crucial that is to the
00:36:44
storytelling here. And then they let him show off
00:36:46
just as himself. Yeah, totally.
00:36:49
Yeah, it's amazing. This was a note actually.
00:36:51
I had this I I took notes watching the movie after I was
00:36:53
done. Outside of this context about
00:36:55
the critics response, it feels to me watching it like Keno was
00:36:59
originally written as a different type of character who
00:37:02
did not himself know martial arts.
00:37:04
Because if you look at like his first couple of scenes, he
00:37:07
really specifically has this kind of like a like New Yorkie
00:37:10
guy quality to how he like what he's saying and like how he's
00:37:13
interacting with other characters that slowly like
00:37:15
gives way to. I'm a very disciplined martial
00:37:18
artist. Like his first line of dialogue
00:37:21
strikes me because it's so bizarre.
00:37:23
He's a pizza delivery guy. He's going to deliver a pizza to
00:37:26
April O'Neil. He's about to meet the turtles,
00:37:28
but he gets on his little moped and he looks at these two women
00:37:30
on the corner and he's like, which one of you ladies wants to
00:37:32
ride with me tonight? And then they say no.
00:37:34
And he, like, fat shames them as a joke where he's just like,
00:37:37
they're like, dream on, dweeb. And he says, yeah, but when I
00:37:40
do, I'll dream of something a little thinner.
00:37:41
And then just laughs and drives away.
00:37:43
And I'm like, that's crazy for this character.
00:37:46
Given the rest of the movie, it seems so different at the
00:37:49
beginning. Yeah.
00:37:50
But then the very next scene that's I think that's
00:37:53
intentionally done because then the very next scene is he shows
00:37:56
up, he sees those guys robbing the place and they're just like,
00:38:00
oh, let's beat up this pizza guy.
00:38:01
And then he starts busting out some sweet Kung Fu moves on him.
00:38:04
And he's like, did I mention I know martial arts?
00:38:06
So it's like, I think, an intentional subversion of the
00:38:10
type of character you expect him to be.
00:38:12
Yeah, I guess maybe the other way to put it is I like that he
00:38:15
has multiple layers because he also kind of like there's a
00:38:19
scene where he knows that the turtles live in April's
00:38:21
apartment and he's trying to prove it, where he kind of like
00:38:23
muscles his way to get into where it like she is so we can
00:38:26
look for him. And even that like he's being
00:38:27
very kind of like prodding and like a little rude.
00:38:31
And I'm like, that's kind of funny to me that this small,
00:38:34
like somewhat meek character who then shows all these martial
00:38:37
arts moves. Also it's like a little bit of a
00:38:39
bully. Like that's such a funny like
00:38:41
extra bit of flair on a a relatively minor role.
00:38:44
He, he's featured in a lot of that movie.
00:38:46
He's not the POV character. Obviously it's not called Kino,
00:38:51
the secret of the use, but. Why not?
00:38:55
Could have been, but he plays a great role.
00:38:57
He's in a significant amount of the movie and his character is a
00:39:01
lot of fun, especially because I think he was just kind of
00:39:05
created for that film. I don't think he exists in any
00:39:07
other Turtles Canon, although that would be a fun character to
00:39:10
bring back. Like if they did like a modern
00:39:11
cartoon in like Keno showed up, that would be pretty great.
00:39:13
That would be pretty good, yeah. Especially, he essentially takes
00:39:17
on the role that in other Turtles media is filmed by Casey
00:39:20
Jones, who's just like another human friend of the Turtles who
00:39:23
can fight with them. Because Casey's in the first
00:39:25
film and then comes back in the third one.
00:39:27
But for this one, they were like Keno.
00:39:29
And I do respect it because it's funny.
00:39:31
Yeah, no, Keno's great. Keno's great.
00:39:33
And he, I think as you mentioned, he was one of the he
00:39:36
was one of the turtles. He was one of the stunt
00:39:37
performers in the first movie. And then, yeah, just got bumped
00:39:42
up, bumped up the card on this one.
00:39:44
Bumped up the card. OK, I have one more recurring
00:39:47
narrative about the critic reviews of Secret of the Use
00:39:50
that I found odd. This is a smaller one, but a
00:39:53
multiple people said in their reviews they wanted to highlight
00:39:57
that the actress for April O'Neil changed in between the
00:40:00
1st and the second movie from Judith Hogue to Paige Turco got
00:40:05
recast. And I will say right off the
00:40:07
bat, I read, I don't know how if this is confirmed, but it's I
00:40:10
saw it in multiple places that the reason Judith Hogue was not
00:40:13
even asked to return. As April in the second film is
00:40:16
that she had trouble with the producers in the first one
00:40:20
because she would like give them a hard time about like the
00:40:23
filming conditions for the stunt performers.
00:40:26
Like she was essentially advocating for the other like
00:40:29
performers on the production and about like some of the shortcuts
00:40:32
being taken by the by the like film makers themselves.
00:40:34
And so they just like blackmailed her and didn't let
00:40:36
her back for the next one, which I'm like, that's what April
00:40:39
O'Neil would do. Yeah, yeah.
00:40:41
Action News reporter April O'Neil that's IA 100% believe
00:40:47
that that's true. I wonder who who revealed that
00:40:51
Did she say that after the fact? I.
00:40:53
Don't think she confirmed it. I'm annoyed because it's in.
00:40:55
I have so many notes on this and I don't remember where I wrote
00:40:58
the details of that part down, but I'm fairly certain that's
00:41:02
been reported in multiple places.
00:41:03
Is that she was not asked to return because she wrote people
00:41:06
the wrong way by essentially doing what the character April
00:41:09
O'deal would do. Or just like a good person or
00:41:12
somebody who. Is a.
00:41:13
Professional and has is familiar with the standards of how our
00:41:18
production should be run and they're like, you know what,
00:41:21
don't bother coming back next time, said the.
00:41:25
Discovery producer. That was a bummer.
00:41:28
I'm like I liked I like both of them.
00:41:30
I think like in isolation, both the people who play April do a
00:41:32
good job. And I do like that they update
00:41:35
April's presentation in the second film because story wise,
00:41:37
in the first one, she's is again at odds with her news producers
00:41:42
and then at the end gets promoted and they make a whole
00:41:44
thing about how like you're the highest paid newscaster in town,
00:41:46
April. And so in the second movie, like
00:41:47
her costuming changes, her apartment's a lot nicer.
00:41:50
It like makes sense that the character has progressed.
00:41:53
But what I found weird is that multiple people went out of
00:41:56
their way to highlight that they like the new actress better who
00:42:00
plays April because she's prettier in their eyes.
00:42:02
Oh my gosh, I'm like what the heck, What a weird thing to say.
00:42:08
Like, yeah, that's, I mean, that says more about the people
00:42:13
critiquing these movies than anything else.
00:42:16
That that's that's. What I mean, like, it's such a
00:42:19
90s thing again, Like, you would not see that presented that way
00:42:22
now, Like, where's the one there's an article from?
00:42:25
OK, so Janet Maslin, again, the New York Times columnist, has a
00:42:29
quote where she says, like everything else in the second
00:42:31
installment, April looks better largely because she's played by
00:42:34
a different actress and makes no attempt to resemble her earlier
00:42:37
counterpart. And then, like, at least two
00:42:39
other ones specifically say, like, pretty actress Paige Turko
00:42:43
takes over as April. And I was like, First off,
00:42:46
they're both Hollywood actresses.
00:42:48
They're both pretty. Like, what a weird thing to say.
00:42:51
Also it honestly think I think it's just 'cause she dresses in
00:42:54
like fancy business attire in the second one.
00:42:57
Yeah, I mean that just I feel like that just kind of devalues
00:43:02
your previous argument if your critics saying well, this is bad
00:43:05
because of violence and not for kids or whatever, but also this
00:43:10
actress is hotter, I guess like I.
00:43:12
Just was so like dismissive and rude to both people involved.
00:43:16
I also thought it was interesting because, again, part
00:43:20
of my conspiratorial angle on this is that critics were
00:43:24
affronted that the first film made them feel something because
00:43:27
it was like kind of a real movie that was a little bit genuinely
00:43:30
dramatic. And I also think that they
00:43:32
didn't like the first actress because she had genuine on
00:43:35
screen chemistry with Casey Jones in the first film.
00:43:38
Like there's like an actual sexual tension between those two
00:43:41
characters in that movie and I think.
00:43:44
An intense sexual tension between.
00:43:46
Casey Jones. I think that's what they were
00:43:49
mad about. I think they were like, I went
00:43:51
to see the Turtles movie and then April O'Neil made me feel
00:43:53
things and now I'm mad. And so then they recast her and
00:43:56
they were like, good. I didn't like her anyway.
00:43:59
Yeah, yeah, that. I mean, Oh my gosh, those scenes
00:44:02
at the farmhouse between, Yeah, Elias Coteus and Judith Hoag.
00:44:06
It's great. It's like an enemies to lovers
00:44:07
trope from like a like somebody's fan fiction.
00:44:11
Yes, it's good. And it's another layer to that
00:44:13
first movie that feels sort of like authentic.
00:44:16
The second movie is intentionally silly and like
00:44:18
much more specifically for children.
00:44:20
But the first time just kind of has everything.
00:44:22
And I think that's what I like about it so much.
00:44:24
Like it's a watchable movie for fans of the Turtles themselves
00:44:28
or fans of martial arts or just fans of 90s cinema.
00:44:32
It just works. Yeah, I've always kind of
00:44:34
thought like the second movie. I've seen a lot more and is more
00:44:40
fun or funny in some ways, but the first movie is a better
00:44:45
film. It's just really solid.
00:44:48
I do appreciate the second one though.
00:44:49
Like, I was seeing it at a theatre, which I'd never done,
00:44:52
and multiple times the movie got like a legit laugh, like out of
00:44:55
the audience, even though I'm sure a lot of them had seen it
00:44:56
before. Like there's a bit where RAF
00:44:59
gets captured by the by the Shredder and the other turtles
00:45:02
are like sneaking into the junkyard to find him.
00:45:04
And they keep commenting on like, oh, there's nobody here.
00:45:06
They're like, oh, it's quiet. Yeah, a little too quiet, and
00:45:09
they do it a couple times. And then when they see RAF, they
00:45:11
go, it's RAF, and then Mikey goes, yeah, a little too RAF.
00:45:14
And that kind of like a legit big laugh from everybody in the
00:45:17
room. And I'm like, it's because it's
00:45:18
funny. It's a funny movie.
00:45:19
Because it's funny. Yeah.
00:45:21
Yeah. So yeah, the April O'Neil thing.
00:45:23
Bizarre. I think the only person who
00:45:25
spoke highly of the original was a staff writer for the
00:45:30
Washington Post named Donna Britt.
00:45:32
Her article was interesting, it was written as if she was having
00:45:36
a conversation about the movie with her young son who went and
00:45:39
saw it with her. I don't believe that.
00:45:41
Like I think she just summarized it, but it's written almost as
00:45:43
dialogue. OK, that's interesting.
00:45:46
So she was complimentary of Judith Hogue as April O'Neil
00:45:50
she. Was and I think was probably the
00:45:53
only person to both acknowledge that the second movie did dumb
00:45:56
things down but also look at like what was lost in doing so.
00:46:00
This is probably the longest quote I have, but I thought it
00:46:02
was really interesting. So she says, quote.
00:46:05
The first film was more mystical, darker, with more
00:46:07
allusions to Eastern religion. It spent more time encouraging
00:46:10
kids to be patient and to find strength within themselves.
00:46:13
Director Michael Pressman made the sequel brighter, sunnier,
00:46:16
much more like a traditional kids cartoon.
00:46:18
Parents will like that there's no cursing.
00:46:20
I do miss Hogue, who brought some much needed female energy
00:46:24
to a baby macho movie. But the second TMNT has enough
00:46:27
jokes aimed at adults to make for a relatively painless outing
00:46:30
for parents forced to take their kids to see it.
00:46:33
And I'm like, that is the most accurate assessment of the movie
00:46:36
out of anybody here. Yeah, totally.
00:46:40
I mean, I don't what was the actress's name in secret of the
00:46:45
use secret? Of the use, I think it was Paige
00:46:47
Turko. I don't mind Paige Turko as
00:46:51
April O'Neil. I've much preferred Judith Elko
00:46:54
personally. Between the two of them, she's
00:46:56
way better. She's way better.
00:46:58
And as you mentioned too, the chemistry between between her
00:47:00
and Elias Koteas is honestly some of the best on screen
00:47:02
chemistry I've ever seen it. It's amazing.
00:47:05
It's. Surprisingly good for such a
00:47:07
like side aspect of that story. And again, you're talking about
00:47:11
POV characters. April gets to be APOV character
00:47:14
through parts of the first film, whereas in the second one she's
00:47:16
relatively minor. Like she kind of falls out of
00:47:18
the story in the second. She's she's totally sidelined.
00:47:21
Yeah, absolutely. She barely does anything in that
00:47:23
movie. So yeah, I thought that part was
00:47:25
really interesting. When I went in, I knew there'd
00:47:27
be conversations about the violence in the film, about how
00:47:30
like prevalent the turtles were. That's that through line about
00:47:33
April was really stood out to me because again, I feel like it
00:47:36
highlighted a little bit of hypocrisy and a little bit of
00:47:38
what made people seemingly uncomfortable with that first
00:47:41
movie was that they were just like, oh gosh, it's a real
00:47:43
movie. And they weren't.
00:47:44
They weren't emotionally ready for Teenage Mutant Ninja
00:47:47
Turtles. Because they're a bunch of
00:47:49
babies. OK, they're a bunch of babies.
00:47:51
Exactly, that's my. You know.
00:47:54
This video is going to be 5 seconds.
00:47:55
I'm going to cut it down to they're a bunch of babies.
00:47:58
They're burbers. There you go.
00:48:05
Before we before we wrap up, just for comparison's sake, I
00:48:08
was like, well, I know what you and I think about the film.
00:48:10
It's awesome. And we've talked about a lot of
00:48:11
the reasons why both the first film and Secret of the Use.
00:48:14
I think they're almost like a good compliment because it
00:48:16
captures both versions of the turtles.
00:48:20
You know, like from their different appearances over the
00:48:23
years. The wait what the first movie
00:48:27
does? Or both movies.
00:48:28
I'm saying that between the 1990 film and the sequel Secret of
00:48:32
the Use, we kind of get to see the full scope of how the
00:48:34
Turtles can be performed. Like you see both.
00:48:37
They're more like authentic, serious, like dramatic qualities
00:48:40
and the more overtly comedic, like cartoon side.
00:48:42
And so I don't think that we that either movie should be more
00:48:45
like the other. I like that they're kind of
00:48:46
different. Oh, me too.
00:48:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. What I thought was interesting
00:48:50
because I was like, you know, Frank and I like it.
00:48:52
What what is like common perception now because I think a
00:48:55
lot of time, a lot of the time now, obviously both movies just
00:48:57
came back out in theaters again. People like them, people who are
00:49:00
fans of the Turtles would want to see them again.
00:49:02
And so I just looked up a random website blog review from 2016,
00:49:07
long after the fact from a website called Cinema Crazed.
00:49:10
It was written by Felix Vasquez and Felix actually had a good
00:49:13
point where I'll get I'll read a quote quote.
00:49:17
Much to the shock of everyone involved. 1990s TMNT movie was a
00:49:21
film for all ages that took violence seriously and depicted
00:49:24
actual consequences to actions and decisions.
00:49:28
And I was like, that's a that's a good point.
00:49:30
The first movie is it not almost better for children to show
00:49:33
violence is something that is consequential and not completely
00:49:38
harmless and silly like the second one does.
00:49:40
Like that kind of topples the argument from a lot of the
00:49:42
concerned people as well. Yeah, that's that's completely
00:49:47
valid takedown, I would say. I, I mean, as I said before too,
00:49:52
it's just that era where, I don't know, it was like the
00:49:55
media was trying to blame violence on anything, but any of
00:50:00
the real causes trying to pin it on this is what's corrupting our
00:50:05
youth. And I, and I honestly think it
00:50:06
was just in unfamiliarity with what their kids were being
00:50:11
exposed to. And it kind of ties into what I
00:50:13
was saying about like, friends I know that have kids now, they
00:50:17
can show their kids Ninja Turtles and know exactly what it
00:50:20
is. They grew up on the same thing
00:50:22
where it's like our parents had no idea what that was because
00:50:26
they had been exposed to completely different things
00:50:29
through various forms of media. Yeah, it's more of like a a
00:50:32
curation at that point where like you always know that
00:50:35
turtles is safe for children, Pokémon is safe for the
00:50:37
children, whereas if it's a new they're like Bluey.
00:50:40
What's his agenda? Yeah, who is this guy?
00:50:42
He's Australian. I don't like that.
00:50:44
I don't like it. Down under where?
00:50:46
Bluey? Down under where?
00:50:48
Down under what? It's a league with the big Dino.
00:50:54
I know it. Barney's out there.
00:50:56
Barney. There's a Barney movie.
00:50:58
The first Barney movie is not bad.
00:51:00
I'll say it. All right, that's some character
00:51:03
growth because I think you, you were on the Barney hate train
00:51:05
for a time. I don't think I was was.
00:51:08
On the Barney hate. Train.
00:51:09
Our mom has said that you at one point really didn't like Barney.
00:51:13
Well, I mean it's what all the other kids was doing.
00:51:14
I was just watching shows and and hitting people so.
00:51:18
People with my nunchuck. Oh, man.
00:51:22
All right. That's that's what I got.
00:51:24
That's my research project. This is what critics said about
00:51:26
Secret of the Use when it was new in theaters.
00:51:28
I think it differs dramatically from how people view the film
00:51:31
now, and I think that many of these complaints would never be
00:51:34
made nowadays, especially with regards to the violence, because
00:51:38
like those Michael Bay Ninja Turtles movies were way worse
00:51:41
about it, as is most things. Mm hmm.
00:51:44
Mm hmm. Gosh, those Michael Bay movies
00:51:47
are so I was like upset when those came out because I was
00:51:53
just, I was like, I don't, I don't want people that think
00:51:56
this is what Ninja Turtles is. It's supposed to be guys in
00:51:58
suits doing martial arts, not these giant weird freaky
00:52:02
monsters things. Yeah, I didn't like that either.
00:52:05
I think there was also the gosh, what's the one from a couple
00:52:09
years ago? It's like Turtles Unleashed or
00:52:12
Mutant Unleashed. What was it?
00:52:14
Got ice cubes in it the animated.
00:52:16
One, people seem to like that one, I haven't seen it, but
00:52:18
that. One that one was.
00:52:19
Pretty well received. I think it it did a good job of
00:52:23
modernizing the turtles where like again, a lot of the
00:52:25
language of the turtles in the 90s was like almost like surfer
00:52:29
slang. Whereas the newer Turtles film
00:52:32
was like, well, the Turtles are kind of hip hop heads and we're
00:52:34
going to lean into that. I'm OK with that though, because
00:52:38
it's, you know, it's a different era of teenagers.
00:52:41
I mean surf culture stuff was bigger in the 90s than it is
00:52:44
now. Exactly.
00:52:45
Nobody's on ironically saying things are bodacious except for
00:52:48
me. You do save a lot.
00:52:50
I've been meaning to tell you. You got to stop.
00:52:51
You got to stop. It's too much.
00:52:55
Things are not bodacious, they are in.
00:52:56
Fact not they're actually very unbodacious currently.
00:53:00
Couldn't be less bodacious than they are right now.
00:53:03
Bodacious levels are at an all time low.
00:53:06
Radical hasn't been seen in years.
00:53:08
Hasn't been seen in years. We don't even know what happened
00:53:10
to him. Where is he?
00:53:16
Love it. All right.
00:53:17
Well, I'd say that's pretty much a.
00:53:20
Wrap. Oh, cowabunga, cowabunga.
00:53:24
All right. Cowabunga Yeah, OK, we'll just,
00:53:27
I'll just layer it four times a second.
00:53:31
Hey, let's, let's get it on through.
00:53:33
Let's get the real 1. Then I'll I'll duplicate both of
00:53:35
us and we'll see how it. Sounds.
00:53:37
Oh, OK, yeah. Cowabunga.
00:53:40
Oh, no, no, I'm sorry.